Tow Rigs

[Slim-Whitey]

Might as well put up a few of my tinkering experiences with the diesels as well. Mostly the dodge. The Ford didn't give many issues besides a dual mass flywheel and the low pressure fuel system.


During the manual swap. It was a ton of fun, my favourite project on my dodge, for sure. Well worth it too.

A set of 100 dollar seats from a Chev silvergaydo, and a couple shitty brackets, and lo, I had heated, power seats.


During the manual rebuild. Another fun project on it. The donor manual I bought was in really poor shape. Checked flywheel, no 5th, grinding 4th, etc etc.
After the rebuild though, wow what a truck.


Post KP60 swap. Went to leafs up front, with a np205 t case. Was not fun. It was going well, very well, and then I bought that house and ran out of money. Cest la vie.

I've seen a few 6.7 for sale already dipping into the 30m and less range due to mileage. 150k on 2014 but they seem to be holding up well.
Isnt death wobble mainly from worn steering components?

Death wobble can be from worn steering parts, but it really originates in a poor factory caster angle. Dodge was bad for this. They'd run a low amount of caster, and at certain speeds you'd get a lot of steering slop. It's why old dodges wandered down the road all the time, that lazy caster angle.

Anyhoozle, that caster angle, which is used to get a nice handling truck at low speed, requires all the steering parts to be in excellent shape, or else road feedback can lead to cycling of the steering (death wobble).

On 2nd and 3rd gen dodges, a good way to fix it is to go to about 5.5 degrees caster, and run own side slightly more aggressive than the other to account for road crown.

Ford's might be similar. I don't know for sure.

 

[azmtnbiker45]

Not mine, stole it from that other forum. Spotted near Tucson on I10 they said!

 

[4runner DOA]

Not mine, stole it from that other forum. Spotted near Tucson on I10 they said!
View attachment 18029

So fucking overland they had to overland their overlanders!

 

[Slim-Whitey]

Not mine, stole it from that other forum. Spotted near Tucson on I10 they said!
View attachment 18029

The towing cap on newer HD trucks is insane.
32,000 pounds with the correctly optioned Dodge diesel.
Now to get that you've gotta have 16.5" wheels and commercial tires and whatnot, but it's all available from factory if you want.

Dunno what the point in a 4500/5500 C&C is anymore, to some degree. A higher overall GVW I guess.

 

[Itaro]

So fucking overland they had to overland their overlanders!

#overlandception

 

[honda250xtitan]

I've seen a few 6.7 for sale already dipping into the 30m and less range due to mileage. 150k on 2014 but they seem to be holding up well.
Isnt death wobble mainly from worn steering components?

yea normally. ball joints, track bar, but like the other guy, alignment plays a large role. IDK what Ford f'ed up but the trucks are the same from aluminum to previous year other than body style lol. Fords fix "install new steering dampener" uh ok nice work FOMOCO.

 

[Slim-Whitey]

I can tell you guys the issue.

The aluminum trucks are more than 700 pounds lighter. I'm willing to bet the alignment and suspension were not properly compensated for that loss of weight, at least not in the first model year.
Particularly the suspension. Re-speccing leafs and coils costs money Ford doesn't WANT to spend.
So the coils are expecting to hold up more than they are, which causes the radius arms to be in a different spot at neutral suspension. And as the radius arm goes down (truck sitting higher), caster gets lower as the C rotates forward.

Now couple that with the fact that a radius arm setup like ford uses affects caster on oscillation more than a 5-link like Dodge used in the 2nd and 3rd gens.

Then the fact that it rotates on oscillation means that if you hit something at the right speed the caster will oscillate just right to start the two sides fight each other.

Steering dampers for trucks didn't exist before link and coil suspensions started in trucks, because the axle moves vertically with leafs and the caster doesn't oscillate.
And FYI: half a degree of caster variation is enough to start an issue. 1/4° will compensate for a road with a steep crown.

But links make the steering geometry go to shit when stuff moves up and down. In an offroader it doesn't matter, but in a highway rig it does.

 

[Stairgod]

I can tell you that I do not believe that the new trucks are lighter in the 250 and 350 versions. They may have saved weight with the body but they sure as fuck added it to the frame. My brother has a 19 CC DRW and that fucking frame is beefy.
And FYI the death wobble in Ford started in 05 when they plopped coils in the front. Good friend of mine had an 05 and I got to experience the wobble from the passenger seat. My northern has also experienced it. And yes the solution is dual steering dampeners according to Ford.
Way back in the day there were instances of it on class A motorhomes with a solid axle and leafs. Definitely not a new issue and certainly not easy to solve otherwise engineers would have solved it a long time ago.

 

[Slim-Whitey]

I can tell you that I do not believe that the new trucks are lighter in the 250 and 350 versions. They may have saved weight with the body but they sure as fuck added it to the frame. My brother has a 19 CC DRW and that fucking frame is beefy.
And FYI the death wobble in Ford started in 05 when they plopped coils in the front. Good friend of mine had an 05 and I got to experience the wobble from the passenger seat. My northern has also experienced it. And yes the solution is dual steering dampeners according to Ford.
Way back in the day there were instances of it on class A motorhomes with a solid axle and leafs. Definitely not a new issue and certainly not easy to solve otherwise engineers would have solved it a long time ago.

First off, steering damper.
Second, steering dampers are bandaids made to mask issues. The mfg calls for them because they cannot make it NOT do that with the setup they are using, for cheaper than just slapping a damper on.

And yes, it started in 05 because they used coils. Coil systems have a hard time combining low speed driveability with high speed manners. Too much compromise.
The d.motorhomes saw it because to get any kind of turning radius and low speed manners out of them, they ran like 1.5° of caster, which caused a ton of wandering and wobble issues down the highway. But, the things would actually turn. Again, easier to just smack a big ole shock absorber on there, than sacrifice the low speed maneuverability of it.

You are correct about the weight. 250/350 trucks see 400 pounds of weight loss, in total, between steel and aluminum. So other things were made heavier.
Doesn't change that if they didn't spec the truck for the weight loss, it can affect the alignment (although not nearly as much).

*Shrug* coils are a pain in the ass with a SFA unless you're an offroader who doesn't mind 8° of caster. Bottom line.

 

[Stairgod]

First off, steering damper.
Second, steering dampers are bandaids made to mask issues. The mfg calls for them because they cannot make it NOT do that with the setup they are using, for cheaper than just slapping a damper on.

And yes, it started in 05 because they used coils. Coil systems have a hard time combining low speed driveability with high speed manners. Too much compromise.
The d.motorhomes saw it because to get any kind of turning radius and low speed manners out of them, they ran like 1.5° of caster, which caused a ton of wandering and wobble issues down the highway. But, the things would actually turn. Again, easier to just smack a big ole shock absorber on there, than sacrifice the low speed maneuverability of it.

You are correct about the weight. 250/350 trucks see 400 pounds of weight loss, in total, between steel and aluminum. So other things were made heavier.
Doesn't change that if they didn't spec the truck for the weight loss, it can affect the alignment (although not nearly as much).

*Shrug* coils are a pain in the ass with a SFA unless you're an offroader who doesn't mind 8° of caster. Bottom line.

I haven't bothered to look up the caster that the 17+ Fords spec but I am not buying low caster for low speed drivability. Just doesn't make sense with power steering or better yet the electric variable rate steering that is an option. There are way more things at work other than caster angle. Ntm that high caster has a higher chance of inducing steering wheel wobble than low caster.
Ever hit a small stone in a drag car running high caster for straight line stability? Didn't think so

 

[Slim-Whitey]

The reason low caster affects low speed manners is that there is less resistance to turning (as the steering "flops over" easier), and less camber turnover.
In something with a long front overhang, long wheelbase, or high weight over the front axle, low camber settings used to be used to get you easy low speed steering when there wasnt the power steering systems we use now.
Those low settings (like old dodge trucks using something ridiculous like 2°) aren't used anymore.

And yes, over about 9° of caster you can run into high frequency vibrations in the steering as each wheel fights to run more straight. Theres a sweet zone between 4 and 8°, typically.

It's the same exact concept as rake and trail in a motorcycle. Buells and older (pre-848) Ducatis were polar opposites on the sportbike take and trail spectrum. Buells ran a very aggressive rake and trail, and they were noted as turning on a dime, but also noted as being a bit sketchy at really high speeds.
Ever had speed wobble at 165mph on a sportbike?
Didn't think so. I can assure you, it's just as fun as during a drag race. Thanks for the condescension though boss, it's appreciated.

Ducatis (like the 1098) used a much lazier steering head angle (and resulting take/trail), and as such were more like wrestling a gorilla around a track, but were sound as a pound at really high speeds.
Sportbike MFGs don't have a solution to rake/trail either. So they sell their bikes with, you guessed it, a steering damper.

It's not that caster is that important, it's that on a radius arm truck the geometry oscillates with the axle. The more oscillation you have, the more variance in your steering geometry. And with everyone wanting softer and smoother rides, suspension oscillation has increased.

That's why every solid axle vehicle sold these days has a steering damper. Because whether it's a Jeep, or a Dodge, or a Ford, if it's got a SFA on coils, it has the potential to run into wobble issues because you can't make a steering setup that is happy at all speeds during oscillation.
So they smack a big ole shock absorber on there to make it resistant to the input from the wheels during all the infinite number of speeds and road irregularities the system will face.

 

[AssBurns]

Man this is a lot of info.

thanks @Slim-Whitey for all the detailed info.

I sorta glazed over after a certain point.

Let's sum it up for the dummies like me.

Ford Super Duty - 7.3 was a great motor, but rev happy.
6.0 needs motor work to be worthwhile.
6.4 should be avoided?
6.7 is out of budget.
Basically leaves me with a 7.3 if I go Super Duty. What years should I focus on, and what should I know about?

Chevy Duramax- 6.6 was a decent motor?, and with an Allison trans, I should be good?
What years should I focus on, and what should I know about?

Dodge Ram - Cummins are great motors, but like to leak a lot. Trans are not very good. 3rd gens have cheap interiors that fall apart. 4th gens are likely out of budget at the moment.
What years should I focus on, and what should I know about?

 

[eimkeith]

Dodge Ram - Cummins are great motors, but like to leak a lot. Trans are not very good.

get the manual transmission. also, the 1st on the 6speed is almost unnecessarily low; I don't think I've ever used it.

 

[AssBurns]

get the manual transmission. also, the 1st on the 6speed is almost unnecessarily low; I don't think I've ever used it.

I just don't really care for manual trans. Plus the wife would hate trying to drive that thing with a trailer. Auto is just so fucking convenient.

I know the benefits of manual but I just prefer auto for the convenience.

 

[Slim-Whitey]

get the manual transmission. also, the 1st on the 6speed is almost unnecessarily low; I don't think I've ever used it.

First is the same on the G56, NV5600, and NV4500. All right near 6:1. You like it when towing heavy because the Cummins engines, much as everyone likes to think they don't, make all their power after 1800rpm when turbo starts to light, because they run fuckall boost at low rpm.
They get a ton of their combustion pressure from compression. A Cummins runs like 525psi compression.
That gives them nice starting manners, but limits the boost they can run without a ton of fueling.

Nice part about the Ford's is they all boost at idle. So the power comes on gradually and steadily.

The extra gear from the 4500 to the 5600 is between 3rd and 4th. 3rd in a 4500 is 1.7:1 and 4th is 1:1. Big drop.

I just don't really care for manual trans. Plus the wife would hate trying to drive that thing with a trailer. Auto is just so fucking convenient.

I know the benefits of manual but I just prefer auto for the convenience.

Diesels with a manual are rather simple. It's like an off/on switch. Clutch to the floor, shift fast as you can, clutch off. You don't really need to modulate the clutch either unless you're towing heavy.

It's just a maintenance thing. You can spend 4g on a "built" auto for a dodge so easily and it'll still fucking break.

But, you do you boo. Autos work fine but you have to stay on top of them.

 

[eimkeith]

First is the same on the G56, NV5600, and NV4500. All right near 6:1. You like it when towing heavy because the Cummins engines, much as everyone likes to think they don't, make all their power after 1800rpm when turbo starts to light, because they run fuckall boost at low rpm.

still, haven't used it; even when pulling (loaded) gooseneck.

 

[Slim-Whitey]

A new diesel just makes so much power that a guy doesn't need gearing like that.

It was handy with my truck when I was hauling. Once I had a boost controller and some extra fuel, I didn't use it as muchm

 

[AssBurns]

Not ready to buy right now, but whatcha guys think about this? Ideally a 3500 would be better, but this checks off the boxes I need.
I don't know if I want a long bed, but since it's just a tow rig, that could actually be a benefit.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for...de1=GMC&modelCode1=GMCC25PU&clickType=listing

 

[eimkeith]

Not ready to buy right now, but whatcha guys think about this? Ideally a 3500 would be better, but this checks off the boxes I need.
I don't know if I want a long bed, but since it's just a tow rig, that could actually be a benefit.

https://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?listingId=542583881&zip=92374&referrer=/cars-for-sale/searchresults.xhtml?zip=92374&fuelTypeGroup=DSL&doorCodes=4&startYear=1981&maxMileage=150000&vehicleStyleCodes=TRUCKS&incremental=all&endYear=2021&driveGroup=AWD4WD&listingTypes=USED&sortBy=relevance&maxPrice=20000&firstRecord=25&marketExtension=off&searchRadius=100&isNewSearch=false&listingTypes=USED&startYear=1981&numRecords=25&maxPrice=20000&vehicleStyleCodes=TRUCKS&firstRecord=25&endYear=2021&searchRadius=100&makeCode1=GMC&modelCode1=GMCC25PU&clickType=listing

I wouldn't bother with 4wd for a tow vehicle, and after having a diesel dually I probably wouldn't go back. Then again, my tow vehicle isn't used for anything else, so it sits for months at a time, which isn't so problematic with diesel - and the stopping ability of the dual rear wheels over the single-wheel variant is significant.

 

[AssBurns]

I wouldn't bother with 4wd for a tow vehicle, and after having a diesel dually I probably wouldn't go back. Then again, my tow vehicle isn't used for anything else, so it sits for months at a time, which isn't so problematic with diesel - and the stopping ability of the dual rear wheels over the single-wheel variant is significant.

Reason for 4wd is I plan to do a lot of desert trips. Sad and mud is no bueno when you have a 10k lb trailer behind you. Not sure I want a dually. Stopping power seems great, but being wide as shit kinda sucks.